A Discussion For Duelers

The Issue of Duels:

Let me first say, it appears i've opened a Pandora's box. The initial issue seemed simple enough in my view. A top 12 dueler reported another top 12 dueler for feeding elo to a clanmate. After a brief investigation, it was clear that the dueler being accused had played several games against a player known to the accused. This met the criteria of 'feeding elo' and so after a brief discussion on the moderator forums i offered to intervene, as a neutral, non-dueling mod.

What resulted was a well articulated and coherent discussion from the accused, after which i realized the 'dueling culture' has changed since my absence pre covid.

So for now, i want to open up the discussion. All AW players are welcome, however as the season progresses, i will be giving special consideration to the top 12 duelers as any decisions made will affect their standings and hard work so far this season.

There are several issues, but for now, let's focus on elo feeding.. specifically:
i) what constitutes elo feeding
ii) whether elo feeding is now part of the dueling communiity culture
iii) is elo feeding something duelers want, not just this season, but in future seasons.

As in past threads with a very narrow focus, if you are off topic, i will be removing any unrelated posts without an explanation. Message me if you feel a post has been removed that is relevant and we can discuss in private... i will restore your post if i misinterpreted, or if it is relevant but just not clear to a non-dueler such as myself.

Thanks for your time - hopefully this issue can be resolved quickly so we can move on to the next ♥

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:15

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

In my view this is exploitation/farming - i'm interested in knowing your opinion.. is this acceptable? Is it farming/feeding in your view, or is it okay?

Escrito por brianwl, 13.08.2021 at 07:17

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:15

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

In my view this is exploitation/farming - i'm interested in knowing your opinion.. is this acceptable? Is it farming/feeding in your view, or is it okay?

ofcourse it is not.
If season elo feeding as I say needs to stop then my suggestion on this is a rank limit to be implemented for seasonal elo, for example a rank 9 or above when duel against rank 8 or below the gained seasonal elo not be counted to his seasonal jounrey and why I say that because when people farm low ranks and gain some points in Leader board then to fill that gap some duelers go other way around or stay true to journey.

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:22

...
ofcourse it is not.
...

Alright, sorry to ask you to be explicit... however in finding a solution i just need to make sure i'm not making any presumptions ♥

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:15

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

Dude if you want to train someone you play 1v1s, a lot of them, if they duel eachother it's farming unless the trainee/lowrank is asking for a duel and feel like he can win, but this happen when the trainee is starting to win 1v1 not before lol.

When i asked the person who was being "farmed" he abruptly replied
"Yes i will continue dueling and get better so that i can beat u" - i didnt even say anything abt me dueling him or being better or whatever
{bear in mind these r not his exact words ,but what he meant by them}
Honestly think once or twice is fine ,but if ure gonna "train" ur clan member/friend/anyone 1v1 is a much better way
Also one of the clan members got kicked out when he confronted the suspect here,
I think taking his point of view in this matter is important too ,as he talked to him firsthand

Escrito por Froyer, 13.08.2021 at 07:56

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:15

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

Dude if you want to train someone you play 1v1s, a lot of them, if they duel eachother it's farming unless the trainee/lowrank is asking for a duel and feel like he can win, but this happen when the trainee is starting to win 1v1 not before lol.

I said what I've seen.

Ii) whether elo feeding is now part of the dueling communiity culture - NO
iii) is elo feeding something duelers want, not just this season, but in future seasons - NO

Since last season I was contender for the first place (and won it, not that that matters) I was warned to try not to play players below certain rank, and especially not multiple times since that constitutes farming and that for that other contender for first place was going to be punished.

So elo feeding, farming, destroys the competitive purpose. Getting from 1000 to 1100 seasonal is ez pz, to 1200 is okay, to 1300 is hard, to 1400 is super hard. Because you win 1-2 elo and lose 20-25

So yeah "elo feeding" while you're training your clanmate and are not competing for trophey is not an issue imo. But if you win bcs of that it is.

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:22

Escrito por brianwl, 13.08.2021 at 07:17

Escrito por Ivan., 13.08.2021 at 07:15

People when recruite new players in clan for training they ask them to start play duels but unfortunately they are the one who farm them first or you can go other way, they offer them training to play duels with trainee, there are so few 1v1 game that new players have played from past 2 season, so all in all you can say it's a payment from new player to be in the clan and learn something.

In my view this is exploitation/farming - i'm interested in knowing your opinion.. is this acceptable? Is it farming/feeding in your view, or is it okay?

ofcourse it is not.
If season elo feeding as I say needs to stop then my suggestion on this is a rank limit to be implemented for seasonal elo, for example a rank 9 or above when duel against rank 8 or below the gained seasonal elo not be counted to his seasonal jounrey and why I say that because when people farm low ranks and gain some points in Leader board then to fill that gap some duelers go other way around or stay true to journey.

I don't think it is a good idea, imagine a good lowrank who can't get a third place trophy because he can't duel highranks with high seasonal elo he will have to farm lowranks and people will cry because he didn't play any highranks.

I have another idea but we have a big cons.
A tournament between top 4 or top 8 duelers of the season and compete for the 3 trophies.
The problem is which map to pick, some duelers play ancient others east, west, 3k or 5k europe.
The only idea I have is to put someone in charge of this tournament and he has to pick a map before the season start for the tournament, duelers will have to train it before the tournament.
Ofc people can keep playing their best map and get easy elo but if you only play the map that the tournament host picked you will have more experience than the other.

Citação:

Escrito por Froyer, 13.08.2021 at 08:09

...
If season elo feeding ... needs to stop then my suggestion on this is a rank limit to be implemented for seasonal elo, ...

I don't think it is a good idea, imagine a good lowrank who can't get a third place trophy because he can't duel highranks ...

I have another idea but we have a big cons.
A tournament between top 4 or top 8 duelers of the season and compete for the 3 trophies.
The problem is which map to pick, some duelers play ancient others east, west, 3k or 5k europe.
The only idea I have is to put someone in charge of this tournament and he has to pick a map before the season start for the tournament, duelers will have to train it before the tournament.
Ofc people can keep playing their best map and get easy elo but if you only play the map that the tournament host picked you will have more experience than the other.

i don't mind the suggestions, just because that's the next step... can i put this discussion on pause though until i hear back from a few more of the top 12. The resolution is going to depend on these responses.. thanks though, and i do agree that the rank limit only resolves one particular problem, and we are going to need a more comprehensive solution such as the one you are proposing... in time though ♥

Citação:

Escrito por brianwl, 13.08.2021 at 08:55

Escrito por Froyer, 13.08.2021 at 08:09

...
If season elo feeding ... needs to stop then my suggestion on this is a rank limit to be implemented for seasonal elo, ...

I don't think it is a good idea, imagine a good lowrank who can't get a third place trophy because he can't duel highranks ...

I have another idea but we have a big cons.
A tournament between top 4 or top 8 duelers of the season and compete for the 3 trophies.
The problem is which map to pick, some duelers play ancient others east, west, 3k or 5k europe.
The only idea I have is to put someone in charge of this tournament and he has to pick a map before the season start for the tournament, duelers will have to train it before the tournament.
Ofc people can keep playing their best map and get easy elo but if you only play the map that the tournament host picked you will have more experience than the other.

i don't mind the suggestions, just because that's the next step... can i put this discussion on pause though until i hear back from a few more of the top 12. The resolution is going to depend on these responses.. thanks though, and i do agree that the rank limit only resolves one particular problem, and we are going to need a more comprehensive solution such as the one you are proposing... in time though ♥

Forcing players into tournament like settings is wrong because:
-it's a season
- and because those top players are usually highly skilled and difference between one and the other can be as thin as first pick or some random tb and that is supposed to make or break season.

Dueling low rank as high rank is farming, BUT i dueled low rank too. Why? Because nobody join my duel for 30-60minutes except low ranks, but i didnt duel them all days.. So winning season by farming is not fair at all. But lets stop saying whats problem, lets try to find solution. Here is my solution:


After each season ends, top 8 players play in knockout phase.

Rules are combined MoW + MoE
Format is best of 6 3xWest and 3xEast
Player who got first pick, pick what side will be played first. Each player must play once as turkey and ukraine and 3rd game is who got first pick.
For west, countries that are allowed are: Spain,France,UK,Germany,Italy. You cant pick same country twice.
As always, unfair play is prohibited, so no Serbian walling, Wall glitching, rewalling etc...


Default Match rules:

Game Type: Europe / Europe+
Turn duration: 4 mins
Starting funds: 10k
Maximum players: 2*
Joining until week: 0*
Victory: Capture player capital and hold for at least 2 turns*
Game duration: 50 turns
Rares: None
Initial countries: 1*
Extra cities: ✔
Allow rejoining: Off
Disable upgrades: Off
Disable strategies: Off
Disable Buildings: On

On this way, mods dont have to watch who farms who. This is an option.
I guess mods who hosted tourneys in past can upgrade this suggestion.

And finally, 3rd option is to everyone farm their clanmates.

I) what constitutes elo feeding - Playing the same person of a very different skill level over and over again with the same outcomes.
ii) whether elo feeding is now part of the dueling communiity culture - I've seen it in smaller amounts, or right at the end of a season for a game or 2, but nothing like this.
iii) is elo feeding something duelers want, not just this season, but in future seasons - When I think of the dueling season I want a spirit of competition and really a celebration of the strategy/play of this game. We all take pride in learning the game, practicing the game, and hopefully finding some level of success at it. The dueling season should be the embodiment of this. In my opinion, if you want to be considered for the dueling season, you should host many games (of your choice) and open it up to everyone, not pick and choose who you play. Private Duels should be done away with all together and we should not get to the end of a season, look at the list of top 12 players, and say "you know what, i never once saw this player host a duel and give poeple the opportunity to play him?"

Have an elo limit,not rank limit
If theres a rank limit-
Someone who's a good lowrank mgiht not be able to play some high ranks
and someone who just got into competitve at high rank/was on hiatus etc wud have a hard time

Seasonal elo limit works i think
Even a big seasonal limit range like 150 or smthng would work,because if someone farms someone,they would move out of that range soon enuf
(Ofc the range can be discussed,i just gave an example)

Waiting for flume, teslastonks, and Dominoz to view... all other top 12 have at least viewed the thread... most have posted now.

Escrito por Tungston., 13.08.2021 at 09:47

I) what constitutes elo feeding - Playing the same person of a very different skill level over and over again with the same outcomes.
ii) whether elo feeding is now part of the dueling communiity culture - I've seen it in smaller amounts, or right at the end of a season for a game or 2, but nothing like this.
iii) is elo feeding something duelers want, not just this season, but in future seasons - When I think of the dueling season I want a spirit of competition and really a celebration of the strategy/play of this game. We all take pride in learning the game, practicing the game, and hopefully finding some level of success at it. The dueling season should be the embodiment of this. In my opinion, if you want to be considered for the dueling season, you should host many games (of your choice) and open it up to everyone, not pick and choose who you play. Private Duels should be done away with all together and we should not get to the end of a season, look at the list of top 12 players, and say "you know what, i never once saw this player host a duel and give people the opportunity to play him?"

I largely agree with this. Sometimes you're bound to get a few low ranks in your duels (especially if you host a lot of duels) but if you consistently host you're bound to face some good players, and if you're actually not that good you'll lose that elo back to better players. I think the problem at hand is when someone exclusively faces the same person over and over again with the same outcome, as Tung said. There is no defined threshold for what qualifies this condition (or else someone could abuse this and 'farm' the threshold amount minus one), but I do think that fair play is especially encouraged in public duels. Yes, spectators can be toxic or can see your strats etc., but I think A) the transparency of the duel is important, people can see how you play, how good of a player you are, and most importantly people can learn from watching other's duels and B) it encourages adaptable play and innovation. I think this helps avoid the same expansions we've all seen a million times and prevents stagnant play. I wouldn't say private duels should be completely done away with, but maybe capping the limit to private duels per season or reserving them for tournaments? Just some ideas.

Next, I've seen elo/rank limit comments. I largely agree with the sentiment of these posts, but I do think it ignores a key point of how I think elo feeding should be defined: playing the same person over and over again with the same outcome (I think the community can decide what is too much for this). I'm sure people will always find methods to weasel their way out of these constraints to continue 'farming,' like someone could be good enough to be a high rank 1200 elo and get 'farmed' by someone only to regain their elo back to 1200 normally after getting farmed (only to be farmed again). Personally, community transparency and opinion should be the gold standard in determining what "too much" of the same outcome for a particular player crosses the line.

Finally, regarding a seasonal tournament - I think the tournament can be dicey, given time constraints or time differences (or a combination of both), since I know many who are still in college, or university, or working, and the time zone makes these tournaments particularly hard to see through to the end. Also Swan's comment about the randomness of tbs/luck and Froyer's comment about map selection/specialty are very valid arguments for why, while well-intentioned, a tournament may not be the best idea.

I'm definitely one of the 'newer' duelers in this space, so happy to hear others' opinions. Also thank you brian for opening this forum for us.

Escrito por Tungston., 13.08.2021 at 09:47

I) what constitutes elo feeding - Playing the same person of a very different skill level over and over again with the same outcomes.

I agree with your definition, but how would the lower skilled player get better if he can't duel better players, even if the outcome will be the same over 20 times? Our time is limited and i think a duel is a good trade for training experience and "spending time" teaching someone.

ii) whether elo feeding is now part of the dueling communiity culture - Yes, it's present even on the cw scene.
iii) is elo feeding something duelers want, not just this season, but in future seasons - No, i'd want it to be as competitive as possible.

Lastly, i don't agree with the proposals of a forced tournament on the end of the season. If someone only duels on ancient, 3K, 5K, whatever, you get it, why would he be forced to earn his trophy on a different category? If that's the problem, just make a different elo bracket for those interested on the mentioned modes (10K west/east).

Alright... so everyone but Dominoz (away for past week)has viewed, so i'm going to give some feed back publicly and then deal with the specifics privately.

Generally, the dueling community has been self-policing - it's beneficial for both mods and players. The recurring issue for mods is being asked to intervene when there is 'elo farming'. If you are a 'black and white' person, this is nearly impossible. Even if someone were to write a rule book, within minutes a dueler could find a way around the rule, requiring a whole new set of rules to deal with the exception. Rinse repeat.

But basically people know what makes for a competitive yet enjoyable dueling experience, and when players cross the line, it's up to the dueling community to decide where that line is, even if there isn't a rule book. Given the limited number of dueling players, i think it's reasonable that 1 in 10 duels could be against a low rank without triggering a community backlash resulting in an elo reset. {And again, 1 in 10 is entirely arbitrary and my personal 'look for' when i do a quick assessment of a player to see if a report has some validity.)

That said, i'm going to continue some private email discussions, but i now have a sense of the community standard and can resolve the initial report. Not going to do it today until i address some valid concerns which may take some time, but a mod response is coming. (Give it 3 days maybe).

I think for now, i'll accept the definition of farming as repeated plays with the same outcome, at least until i hear a better definition with the majority of the community in agreement. And no i'm not going to say x number of games with y number of win to loss ratio.

Now, getting back to the suggestions... i'll do a separate post for that and set some framework for the discussion, much as i did for this.

Thanks everyone for your contributions.. helped tons ♥

UPDATE: Suggestion thread now open: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=47833

Restore duels in game and allow duels in other maps that aren't the overpalyed EU+

Escrito por Flume, 13.08.2021 at 12:01

Escrito por Tungston., 13.08.2021 at 09:47

I) what constitutes elo feeding - Playing the same person of a very different skill level over and over again with the same outcomes.

I agree with your definition, but how would the lower skilled player get better if he can't duel better players, even if the outcome will be the same over 20 times? Our time is limited and i think a duel is a good trade for training experience and "spending time" teaching someone.

I definitely see what your saying. I mean, I dueled lelouch like 15 times and lost all of them before i ever beat him. I wouldn't say Lelouch was intentionally farming me during that time. I think the difference is those 15 games happened over the course of like 9 months, not in like a 1 week time span. For most, significant improvement takes time and doesn't happen within a few days playing this game. I don't have a problem playing lower ranks, look at my duel history. I think the problem is ONLY playing low ranks AND playing the same one many times over in a short time.

I believe the first question to be the most pertinent and extremely challenging.
What constitutes elo feeding? For the purpose of this discussion let us consider a variety of scenarios. Case 1, a player A, playing at the limits of his/her ability against an objectively superior opponent,player B.
Does this constitute elo feeding ?
Can the first player control the ability of his opponent?
For the past couple months there was a player who would have duels open all day everyday. Many players would routinely defeat him. I took the opportunity to play him on a few occasions until I felt pity and offered to help the player,even accepting him in coalition. I advised him to take a break from duels until there was a tangible change in his ability. He stopped duels for approximately 12 hours and was back at it . He wanted to duel, what moral authority or otherwise did I have to stop the player from playing games he clearly wanted to? In this open system that we play, who has the authority to stop a player from playing games he clearly has a right to?
Was it wrong for him to play duels ? The coalition that he belonged to is immaterial to the fact that it was a classic case of a player playing at the limits of his ability against superior opponents. For argument's sake let's continue to consider this scenario. We decide that this constitutes elo feeding….
What parameters would we then use to determine it is not? Who will and how do we assign nominal values for the strength of the respective players and what differential is acceptable, how do we arrive at the thresholds?
In such a case we would begin to enter the realm of subjectivity and from a policy perspective that is a slippery slope.
We continue to consider the scenario in play. Should we affirm that it is elo feeding, do we then outlaw the possibility for such a game or do we set a limit on the number of games?
Or is it elo gained?
Let us pretend that we affirm that a max of one game is allowed. This still does not eradicate this from the current system. I just ask my mod friend or better yet, an admin for access to the player database. I then select 50 unique random accounts, maybe some of them from back in 2013, 2014,2015. I simply need to play 1 game each. Noting that seasonal elo resets each season, each of these accounts will contribute approximately 5elo. I can therefore safely get to 1250 seasonal elo, extrapolating from last 3 seasons one could feel confident of receiving a trophy if you reach 1350 elo. Very simple modelling can now tell me exactly how much elo I would need from specific players from the active pool, Q.E.D. Over the course of a 90 days season 50 random games would not raise any flags but it would have effectively decided the matter. The random nature ensures that there are a variety of ranks, maybe many rank 7-9 so people feel comfortable? For far too long many players have operated on a presupposition that rank is proportional to skill, which is false. Rank is a statement of SP earned and says nothing about the experiences along the way.Who would care if a random inactive rank 15 or 13 plays a game against me? He is rank 13 so it cannot possibly be feeding right?

Let us consider a second scenario, case 2. Two players of relatively equal playing strength but one player loses a few. Does this constitute elo feeding ? Maybe the player had a bad day? He simply loses 2 games? Would that be elo feeding or again it is defined by the number of games? Or the net elo gained? How does one establish proof?

Case 3, one player is perceived to be much better than the other , the "better" player loses.
The net gain from a higher rated player could be higher from 2 games than 10 vs another player. So does this scenario constitute elo feeding ? Is it possible for a less skilled player to beat a "better one? I would think so. Can it happen twice, I would tend to think that is not out of the realm of the probable. So at what point does it become elo feeding? I ask once more how does one establish proof that the better player should not have lost? What constitutes elo feeding?
The absolute transfer of a predetermined number of elo points, whether voluntarily or otherwise?
The number of wins/ losses vs 1 player ?
The gain of elo without much real effort? Whether it be 1 game vs 50 opponents that never had a chance?

If any or all of the above is true and constitutes elo feeding then in response to the second question one need not leave it up to sentiment or belief one can simply look at the evidence and it is absolutely clear that it is a part of the culture;I would rather say, part of the present game.

Would I like to see it in other seasons of course not, this is why I have made the case repeatedly that this current system is woefully inadequate. One cannot continue to use a broken system and expect results to improve or then attempt to take punitive actions against players who played within the framework of the system as established. I firmly believe it is the responsibility of management to provide the structure capable of producing desired results. The solution is extremely straightforward. One cannot continue with an open system where the players have the control. Players need to enter a closed system that has rigid structure and oversight. The choice can be open to players who wish to compete in "competition". Those who want to play with their friends and just relax are welcome to do so, you can do anything you want in a 1v1 and have fun. A competition is different. Firstly players sign up for duel season like any other competition. This allows a finite number of players and eliminates alts immediately because those things would be checked . You cannot decide you don't want to play, X because you don't like him; well you are welcome to default your points . Barcelona and Real Madrid do not like each other but that is life and how competitions work. Rules are standardized, a player cannot change it as he/she sees fit. There can be trophy for 10k,5k and 3k. This allows players to sign up for any or all of the competitions if they would like to. Competitions would have a clear structure and of course there are a finite number of games . I can elaborate on the tournaments in greater detail at another time, in the interest of staying on topic.

This was on my list of things to figure out but looks like Brian beat me to it thank you for saving me time!

I had given this some thought, and I was going to propose no dueling clanmates. Simple and easy solution.

I don't agree of setting a "standard map" for dueling because not everyone plays 10k Europe. Some people play outside of Europe. And some of the highest elo peaks were actually achieved without using the Europe+ 10k format.

Any standardization is limiting this game's biggest strength.

Be that as it may, last season i played a lot of duels with Phoenix, for the biggest part the games were really equal, but I felt like I lost way more games than now when I look at it. He is my friend, he was for short while my clanmate and I got unbanned mid season so I was chasing players. I guess it felt like that because many games were very close and losses hurt me more than him. I even remember telling him after some games, half jokingly half truth, that I can't play him anymore, mods will consider it farming. But he was always eager to play, and we mostly played 3-5k quick games.








So I guess my question is do you think these were farming/elo-feeding ?

Because I guarantee you that I won that elo fair and square. My point is you can't really determine if it's elo feeding just by metadata.

Escrito por PleaseMe, 13.08.2021 at 16:15

This was on my list of things to figure out but looks like Brian beat me to it thank you for saving me time!

I had given this some thought, and I was going to propose no dueling clanmates. Simple and easy solution.

I don't agree of setting a "standard map" for dueling because not everyone plays 10k Europe. Some people play outside of Europe. And some of the highest elo peaks were actually achieved without using the Europe+ 10k format.

all highest elo peaks were achieved by farming/retarded 5k/3k duels
that is the only way to peak in elo

just balance eu+ by nerfing ukr a little bit and everything is good
set eu+/eu as standard
mods can balance other maps and settings like gme 3k and if they are good add it to the set of standard maps

Youd have to implement some matchmaking system to truly make it "fair"

Given recent interest in revamping duels, i'm bumping this thread so players can see what has already been discussed, and why we are at an impasse. Please offer your suggestions. ♥

The issue with certain player is that he keeps duelling on only one map and only one setting. The best thing we could do at this point i think is to add a restriction in which the same settings (map and preset) can't be played twice in a row. Then we could have a more reliable duelling system, and also the sugestion already made regarding low ranks, but i would sugest since rank 7 you can duel for real. Low ranks can duel but as someone said those duels won't have any impact on regular and seasonal elo.