Actual discussion on re-walling

Hello there AW community,

I read the topic about re-walling but almost none of the comments focused on the actual problem. Therefore, I created this topic for people who are willing to give their opinions on the matter at hand and not go off topic. For the sake of avoiding misinterpretation, let's call it re-walling, because that is essentially what is being done, whether some think it is a glitch or not. So, let's first define what we mean by re-walling;

Moving your original wall units and then creating a new one.

Not moving the old wall units and creating another one, either by 5 or 6 units in total.

Now, these are only re-walling on yourself. However there are cases when people re-wall around their allies' capital or destroy their opponents' wall and create one the same turn. These are also 'kind of' re-walling, but I want to leave these aside since we are concentrating on the two bullet points above. We can discuss the other ones somewhere else if necessary.

First of all, I want to make it clear that I THINK re-walling is a cheap move and is not an actual strategy (Emphasis on 'I THINK') because it is such an easy move that gives a big advantage when successful.

But, I do think it should be allowed just because of a couple of reasons. Firstly, because it is very hard to keep track of it. If it isn't allowed, I can already see people complaining and accusing people when for example their opponents wall didn't break because of aw glitching. We all know this happens sometimes, we send a unit to break our opponents wall but the unit stands next to it and doesn't break it. Not because the player re-walled but because of AW glitching. It is also nearly impossible to prove if you do not have a screenshot of the battle phase where you see the path of the units. And since people usually immediately skip the battle phase or don't pay attention to the wall of their opponents, we will almost never be able to prove it if someone re-walls, which is a very good excuse of doing it.

Secondly, because there is a VERY easy way of preventing re-walling. Which is simply by putting a wf next to the city where you break the wall. (I recognize that this doesn't always work, but it works most of the time).

Thirdly, if we allow it, almost everyone will start to break their opponents walls as well as putting a wf to prevent re-walling. If everyone starts to WF, re-walling will only rarely work which will lead to people giving up on using it. Or at least we will see a decline in the number of people using it. You might think why hasn't that already happened. And the answer is simple because so far, the people that think that it is a cheap move thought that their opponent wouldn't use it because they don't use it themselves.

I want to touch on one more topic, which is that some said we should only make it illegal in 'competitive games', but this has a lot of problems. If we make something illegal, it should be illegal for whole of AW. If not, it would just create excuses for people to use it. Also, the 'competitive games' might afterwards turn into 'official games' when people say, 'eh who cares, this is just a 3v3, it's not official anyway'.

Anyway, these are my reasons as to why I think that re-walling should be allowed. What is your opinion? Should it be allowed or not? Please state constructive arguments if you decide to give your opinion. And let's keep it on-topic shall we? If you so desire to go off topic, refer back to the other topic.

Escrito por Milkyy, 01.05.2014 at 07:21

EDIT: Yes I obviously support re-walling, I'll respond to the 2 bullet points further later.
Hello,
To be clear, re-walling is a completely legit TACTIC especially that it indeed is preventable. I would've thought otherwise if there was no way to prevent it from happening. Secondly, people think re-walling's a glitch since many call it "wall-glitching" when it's actually not a glitch, but part of the game. As Acquiesce and tophat said earlier, "If you think re-walling's a glitch then you shouldn't wall since walling's actually somewhat a glitch and Amok and Ivan didn't intend for it." I used to dislike re-walling and hated whoever used it, but I've lately come to my senses of how great it is :p (I'm making it sound as if it's like beer ).
Plus, it's ironic how some people do big round walls around caps turn 2 or 1 or ally re-wall but still hate re-walling while they don't realize that the three achieve the exact same goal, and that ally-rewall and re-walling are basically the same thing other than the fact that they both are much better than using big round walls since you do the same thing with less units. I have no more to say
Thanks for your time

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 07:56

Firstly Bullet is an idiot.

Secondly i agree with everything beartank said ...except for 1v1 and duel games, because sometimes its really unfair even if both countries rewall succesfuly and whats more important and i have said this milion times ...some countries can break and wf more easily then others (less cash, more range etc. ...its favoritizing certain strategies)

Wow, third post and you are already trying to turn what could have been a constructive thread into an insult match.

What makes 1v1 and duel games so special exactly? Also your argument that some countries can break and wf more easily than others is completely irrelevant. It's easier to rush as Turkey than it is as Sweden. We don't ban rushing. It's easier to big round wall around Berlin than it is around London. We don't ban these types of walls. The point is that how "easy" it is to pull off a move shouldn't even come into the equation. It's irrelevant to the actual matter at hand and if a general acceptance of rewalling gave some countries a newfound slight boost over others who cares? AW has gone through many changes and through these changes some countries have benefited more than others.

Escrito por Acquiesce, 01.05.2014 at 08:14

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 07:56

Firstly Bullet is an idiot.

Wow, third post and you are already trying to turn what could have been a constructive thread into an insult match.

Acqui <3
Jesus Christ Goblin, please don't go off-topic.

I support the use of rewalling.

firstly i dont really understand the simplicty argument against it, goblin has made this argument too and now i see it in bertanks post.regular walling, turnblocking are simple moves as well and often annoying, but it doesnt mean we should illegalise them. on the flipside, to paraphrase goblin, a monkey could counter rewalling as all it requires is 1 extra unit.

secondly its very easy to keep track of, if you attempted a wallbreak and the unit hasnt moved and there wasnt a tb, well then theyve obviously rewalled, also at the start of the battle phase you can see if an opponent moved their wall. and it is easy to separate from the actual aw bug of where a wallbreak fails and the unit ends up beside the still intact wall because if your opponent rewalls, your unit doesnt move to beside the wall.

thirdly, it really isnt that prevalent in gameplay nowadays, only a mere handful of people use it with any level of consistency, and tbh if you know youre facing someone who likes to use it its your own fault if youre too lazy to wf as well as wallbreak and afford them the advantage of maintaining their cap wall.

Finally, its just an extra move in the arsenal of tactics and moves one can employ in this game, its really not worth all this debate.

ps this is simply my opinion on rewalling, yesterday i had mr own u latejoin a 3v3 i was in as volga soley to fuck with me where i was playing ukraine, unfortunately the host hadnt turned it off, but the game was 5 6 turns in. ruined the game for everyone so all the players just left. when i asked him wtf he tells me "its a tactic", an obvious reference to the rewalling debate. while mou isnt someone i talk to much, i was surprised to see such pettiness from someone who presents themselves as a pillar of the community and seeks to be a mod. For anyone else who disagrees with me and cant provide logical counter arguments to mine, kindly do not fuck with my games, thanks.

Came to say the exact same thing as Acqui, but he already did, so no more need for that. Again, stay on topic and if you want to insult someone, use PM chat or something. Anyway, I had one more question to goblin. I don't get what you mean by, that there is a difference in 1v1 or duel with 3v3 (or other games). Can you elaborate?

Escrito por bullet86, 01.05.2014 at 07:51

Hello,
To be clear, re-walling is a completely legit TACTIC especially that it indeed is preventable. I would've thought otherwise if there was no way to prevent it from happening. Secondly, people think re-walling's a glitch since many call it "wall-glitching" when it's actually not a glitch, but part of the game. As Acquiesce and tophat said earlier, "If you think re-walling's a glitch then you shouldn't wall since walling's actually somewhat a glitch and Amok and Ivan didn't intend for it." I used to dislike re-walling and hated whoever used it, but I've lately come to my senses of how great it is :p (I'm making it sound as if it's like beer ).
Plus, it's ironic how some people do big round walls around caps turn 2 or 1 or ally re-wall but still hate re-walling while they don't realize that the three achieve the exact same goal, and that ally-rewall and re-walling are basically the same thing other than the fact that they both are much better than using big round walls since you do the same thing with less units. I have no more to say
Thanks for your time

Bullet, thanks for your input, and I do know that some call it glitch because it is refered to as wall-glitch, but again that's not the point of this discussion. I'll ask again, do you think re-walling should be allowed or not? And what are you reasons. Also, let's not mix in the other types of re-walling and only stick to the two bullet point. Thanks : )

Escrito por Permamuted, 01.05.2014 at 08:27

I support the use of rewalling.

firstly i dont really understand the simplicty argument against it, goblin has made this argument too and now i see it in bertanks post.regular walling, turnblocking are simple moves as well and often annoying, but it doesnt mean we should illegalise them. on the flipside, to paraphrase goblin, a monkey could counter rewalling as all it requires is 1 extra unit.

secondly its very easy to keep track of, if you attempted a wallbreak and the unit hasnt moved and there wasnt a tb, well then theyve obviously rewalled, also at the start of the battle phase you can see if an opponent moved their wall. and it is easy to separate from the actual aw bug of where a wallbreak fails and the unit ends up beside the still intact wall because if your opponent rewalls, your unit doesnt move to beside the wall.

thirdly, it really isnt that prevalent in gameplay nowadays, only a mere handful of people use it with any level of consistency, and tbh if you know youre facing someone who likes to use it its your own fault if youre too lazy to wf as well as wallbreak and afford them the advantage of maintaining their cap wall.

Finally, its just an extra move in the arsenal of tactics and moves one can employ in this game, its really not worth all this debate.

ps this is simply my opinion on rewalling, yesterday i had mr own u latejoin a 3v3 i was in as volga soley to fuck with me where i was playing ukraine, unfortunately the host hadnt turned it off, but the game was 5 6 turns in. ruined the game for everyone so all the players just left. when i asked him wtf he tells me "its a tactic", an obvious reference to the rewalling debate. while mou isnt someone i talk to much, i was surprised to see such pettiness from someone who presents themselves as a pillar of the community and seeks to be a mod. For anyone else who disagrees with me and cant provide logical counter arguments to mine, kindly do not fuck with my games, thanks.

Yes, I know you can see that in battle phase, and that's what I already said. If you read again, maybe you missed but I stated that most do not check their opponents walls during the battle log, they are just used to maybe looking at battles or simply starting to turn. Anyway, I hadn't thought about the unit that would break the wall staying in its original position if there is a re-wall. But then again, that doesn't change my view on the subject since that is not the only reason that I would allow re-walling. Also, i still think there would be a lot of topics in the forum with people saying "OH, he re-walled in CW" or the similar, if it were to be banned to re-wall.

Well, some are not used to wf'ing, so they can forget. It's not about laziness. I do think it is worth discussing because if it's not done, the two sides start to insult each other in topics (as we have seen). That is why we as a community need to come up with a decision about it being legal or illegal. And that's what I want to see in this topic. How many think it should be banned and how many the otherwise.

I say we should stop sea-walling, eventho I do that constantly, its to OP

Escrito por Cthulhu, 01.05.2014 at 08:58

I say we should stop sea-walling, eventho I do that constantly, its to OP

stop sea walling? you crazy?

A lot of what you've said and stated makes sense and I agree with them.

Essentially, the biggest and logical reason for us to legalise rewalling is to avoid further arguments that will spring up as it's not an easy thing to monitor. It doesn't exactly answer my question as to why rewalling has been popularised as of recently but this seems appropriate enough and I'm convinced to believe due to the reluctance of others, there can be no other option.

I understand completely and share your view of how, to yourself, you view it as a "cheap" move yet you believe that legalising it will, in the long run will be beneficial for the community as it'll resolve a lot of current disputes. I've also said this, stating that if there is a reason that would actually either benefit the game-play or the community, that I would gladly accept this regardless of what I personal think. Thus, from what you've said, it'll contribute to the betterment of the community as it will resolve iffy problems between players. This seems like the easiest yet formidable option.

Hopefully, others who are against will see this too. Especially since your (Bertank's) third point shows how there will be a time where rewallling will be almost non-existent again. Once people begin to accept this and it becomes countered every game, players will begin to think it's a waste of effort to even think about trying to rewall as their opponent will anticipate and counter it. Therefore, introducing a decline.

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 09:37

Personal expirience ...i have posted an example.

Everything in your example applies to not only 1v1s but to every other game type as well.

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 09:48

So clearly from that country which has more expansion solutions and troops has an advantage ...how is that strategic and not unfair. Bigger country will use (in my example) up to 40 units turn 2 to get a huge advantage expaned more and then spamm more troops to protect the capital ...how is this against spamming units and givin a chance for lesser troops to win the game tacticly?

All of these complaints are non-unique. They exist regardless of rewalling or not. Yes bigger countries have more units so? Yes they can spam those units, also so what? You really think accepting rewalling as legitimate is going to change AW so dramatically? Some countries may get a slight boost because it's geographically more difficult to both break and wf their caps but other than this the difference is minimal. I'd wager that most people won't even rewall that often because they come to expect a wf.

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 10:03

Ok ...finaly someone admits that some countries get a boost from this and advantages, finaly someone admits there are tiny flaws in this.

Of course some countries may get a tiny advantage. But I deny that is a flaw. It's a complete non-issue.

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 10:03

Escrito por Acquiesce, 01.05.2014 at 09:55

All of these complaints are non-unique. They exist regardless of rewalling or not. Yes bigger countries have more units so? Yes they can spam those units, also so what? You really think accepting rewalling as legitimate is going to change AW so dramatically? Some countries may get a slight boost because it's geographically more difficult to both break and wf their caps but other than this the difference is minimal. I'd wager that most people won't even rewall that often because they come to expect a wf.

Ok ...finaly someone admits that some countries get a boost from this and advantages, finaly someone admits there are tiny flaws in this.

youre going off on a completely irrelevant tangest, the dynmaic of the strat/country balance isnt perfect, and it would be boring if it was. we all know this, rewalling makes little difference.

ie sm ukraine >> any germany, except in this case a successful rewalling might give germany a better chance of survival.

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 10:29

Escrito por Permamuted, 01.05.2014 at 10:21

ie sm ukraine >> any germany, except in this case a successful rewalling might give germany a better chance of survival.

With all the bombers Ukraine can make ...you think there is a chance of germany making a succesful rewalling or that germany has any chance against a good player playing Sm ukraine ...jesus.

And wow no respons to my 3 min standard suggestion? ...you cant bitch about countries having disadvantage in less time since you guys said its a non issue.

this is a rewalling debate thread, stop going off topic, youre seeking reasoning for your personal opinion in areas where theres none to be found. and i never said time was a non issue.

all of this is subjective natter, theres no logical reason to be against rewalling, what this is really about is "i dont like rewalling, and i feel my opinion should control others".

I've read both sides of the argument here and I've read how 'rewall is not a glitch' but, what if my wf unit survives and you rewall? My wf unit would be in a position on the map in which it would normally wf your cap, but it does not break the wall because you rewalled, correct? If we were to make it that as long as the wf unit is within x amount of range to the players cap, it will wf no matter if they rewalled or not, there will be no problem with rewall. Of course, the player could always put more units into their walls making it impossible for one unit to survive, but still.

Also, preventing it can be a bit tricky. For example, how many of us have played UK and when we rush NL and wf netherlands, our wf unit gets pushed into the country because our opponent put their troops almost exactly where ours was? What's to stop our units from attacking the wall/the cap when you make a rewall exactly where our other wf unit is? This isn't a reason to ban rewall, but it should be noted that it isn't a guarantee that we can prevent it every time.

One other thing is that we are only making the learning curve that much steeper for new players. When I was with my nuggets, I could explain an expansion thoroughly and all he ends up taking is Norway, NL, and czech. It took 20 minutes for him to understand a TB and how to TB, who knows how hard it might be for them to remember to properly double wf?

I agree that rewalling is a cheap move and people will usually use it when they are losing (there are better tactics which you can use? other
important TBs to do etc?) so I also think that rewalling shouldn't be seen as a "top-tier" move.

Although, I have nothing against rewalling and have done it a handful of times. Sure it's annoying, but once they do it you can WF and it should always WF the new wall. (If you don't look at battles, then it's your own loss, don't rant about a glitch occuring). However, I completely agree to Fock's second point which could be very dangerous to claiming the winner of a game, unless you get an ally to WF or something. - Maybe get the admins to assure that units aren't pushed into cities?
That is essentially a glitch since you did not intend to put that unit into the city.

Escrito por Milkyy, 01.05.2014 at 07:21

First of all, I want to make it clear that I THINK re-walling is a cheap move and is not an actual strategy (Emphasis on 'I THINK') because it is such an easy move that gives a big advantage when successful.

So does walling, a even easier move gives you also a great boost. And ofc, why would we ban walling?

@Fock, from personal experience if you rewall the unit that would attack the wall follows it to the new destination (where the old wall units were sent to). If it goes to where the wall would have been, the rewall automatically fails because it does wf (this occurs when the wallbreak unit cannot range the place the old wall units were sent to). Additionally, if the unit tb's the old wall the rewall also fails, because the units don't move so the wall messes up. Therefore there is never a situation where the unit goes to the city to attack the wall and rewalling works. Therefore this is a non-issue, unless I'm misunderstanding you (which is entirely possible, because it's me).

@Goblin, didn't you say before that Europe+ was horrendously unbalanced anyway, and we'd all gotten used to it so it seemed balanced? I agree with you on that, but surely this means that a slight shift in balance won't change anything significant.

I would also like to object to the consideration that walling several times around your cap is being considered as rewalling. This is just odd really, because I've seen r4s and 5s do this. It is game mechanic that is completely observable, does not seem to trick you, fails easily, wastes valuable units and very hard to pull off with the city density of competitive gameplay. I've done this before many times in competitive games (because I'm weird like that) and no one has complained or said it is like rewalling until this thread. By that logic all walls that are not 3 unit walls around cities are akin to rewalling. Personally, this just seems bizarre.

I agree with stryko that the issue he highlighted is significant, causing me to loose many games quickly, a real pain, whereas wg by itself has cost me only one.

Apart from this BertanK is right, he has said everything about rewalling that needs to be said.

Escrito por Cthulhu, 01.05.2014 at 08:58

I say we should stop sea-walling, eventho I do that constantly, its to OP

bomber can break them( air unit)

Escrito por Goblin, 01.05.2014 at 07:56

Firstly Bullet is an idiot.

Secondly i agree with everything beartank said ...except for 1v1 and duel games, because sometimes its really unfair even if both countries rewall succesfuly and whats more important and i have said this milion times ...some countries can break and wf more easily then others (less cash, more range etc. ...its favoritizing certain strategies)

How would you stop other player from Wg, If people keep doing it. if people do wg on you you should do it to them too.