*** Another advice ***

If mods can kindly check each forum thread every day and clean it from spam, fights, flame wars without players having to ask them to do that, it would be great.

For example all the quote spam in the following link should be deleted because it isn't comfortable to view the posts through New Post on my phone due to the massive uneeded spam quote. You could leave the last 2 quotes or something after shortening them
http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=32299

Clean the posts here too. People are trying to start a flame war over nothing http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=33811

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 08:46

If mods can kindly check each forum thread every day and clean it from spam, fights, flame wars without players having to ask them to do that, it would be great.

For example all the quote spam in the following link should be deleted because it isn't comfortable to view the posts through New Post on my phone due to the massive uneeded spam quote. You could leave the last 2 quotes or something after shortening them
http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=32299

Clean the posts here too. People are trying to start a flame war over nothing http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=33811

This is ineffective, as mods must then make interpretations of the intent of what a poster means. As a rule of thumb, trolls will claim mods are idiots who always misinterpret their jokes, and we are censoring them and violating their freedom of speech, and they paid good money for their accounts so they could express themselves on the forum.

Generally speaking, 95% or more of posts are spam/flame/off-topic imo... and while i am one of the players who agree they should be cleaned up, when i did this as a mod, there was enormous backlash on censorship, from players, mod and administrators. I learned that Ivan and Amok generally want a free forum, and while i'm not sure they realize how bad it is now, there are specific messages by admin to give players a fair amount of latitude and the benefit of the doubt.

One compromise for those mods who want to clean up the forums was the 'archive', so Ivan created this and we can just park controversial threads.

However, it still doesn't resolve the problem - it just minimizes the backlash.

While it's not an official rule, the policy i have is that i will sanitize threads on request (and even then, my mailbox fills with complaints), but given i only know about 7 players who actually want this, i just respond to the request.

One other suggestion i put forth in mod forum was that we create a 'gentleman's forum' in which mods would clean the posts as you suggest. This would create a 'space' for those players who want off-topic/flame posts removed. This was only supported by 3 or 4 mods, and never materialized.

However, i can talk to Ivan again about it if i had some support from the community.

A work around is putting a code in the thread title (like three stars) - so mods know these threads could be cleaned.

For instance: "***Another Advice***" would denote a thread that could be cleaned up without request.

Let's try it.. i renamed your post and we can experiment with it.

(My prediction... no one will post cuz it's a friendly, non-flame discussion now.)

Escrito por brianwl, 12.08.2017 at 10:07

This is ineffective, as mods must then make interpretations of the intent of what a poster means. As a rule of thumb, trolls will claim mods are idiots who always misinterpret their jokes, and we are censoring them and violating their freedom of speech, and they paid good money for their accounts so they could express themselves on the forum.

Generally speaking, 95% or more of posts are spam/flame/off-topic imo... and while i am one of the players who agree they should be cleaned up, when i did this as a mod, there was enormous backlash on censorship, from players, mod and administrators. I learned that Ivan and Amok generally want a free forum, and while i'm not sure they realize how bad it is now, there are specific messages by admin to give players a fair amount of latitude and the benefit of the doubt.
One other suggestion i put forth in mod forum was that we create a 'gentleman's forum' in which mods would clean the posts as you suggest. This would create a 'space' for those players who want off-topic/flame posts removed. This was only supported by 3 or 4 mods, and never materialized.

However, i can talk to Ivan again about it if i had some support from the community.

A work around is putting a code in the thread title (like three stars) - so mods know these threads could be cleaned.

For instance: "***Another Advice***" would denote a thread that could be cleaned up without request.

Let's try it.. i renamed your post and we can experiment with it.

(My prediction... no one will post cuz it's a friendly, non-flame discussion now.)

I like your idea.
I made a suggestion about this few years ago. I suggested deleted threads should be under pending section until they're approved by few mods to be completely erased, this can apply on posts inside the thread.

If you are going to talk with Ivan, ask him if he can also start a Log section in mod forum that allows the mods to see which thread / post has been deleted and by whom. And the deleted posts / threads can be there for let's say at least 30 days with option to restore them, so it can be seen and judged by the rest of the staff to conclude if there was abuse of power or if it was a just.


And frankly it shouldn't matter if they complain. They are breaking the rules and their posts should not receive special treatment because of their complaint or premium status.
Paying for premium, or not knowing the rules or forgetting about the rules is no excuse to violate the rules.
Those who pay for a premium do so in order to enjoy the premium features this game has to offer and not to have immunity from moderation, because the rules of aw should apply to every user that is part of this community without bias whatsoever.

Citação:

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 12:26

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If you are going to talk with Ivan, ask him if he can also start a Log section in mod forum that allows the mods to see which thread / post has been deleted and by whom.

...
And the deleted posts / threads can be there for let's say at least 30 days with option to restore them, so it can be seen and judged by the rest of the staff to conclude if there was abuse of power or if it was a just.


And frankly it shouldn't matter if they complain or not. They are breaking the rules and their posts should not receive special treatment because of their complaint or premium status.
...

I think there's several admin priorities higher than logging forum deletions... but that is what the archive is for now... mods generally don't delete topics outright anymore (unless their obvious, like porn or something) We put them in the archive and discuss if necessary...

As for the complaining, this gets into an issue of who decides when a post breaks the rules... If you call me an idiot, does that get deleted? What if you infer i'm an idiot? What if you propose an idea, and it's a good idea, exposing idiocy in the admin, thereby inferring idiocy?

And since banter is a part of this game, if Khal calls Waffle an idiot, but neither is offended, should a mod come in and delete the comment if it is in off-topic? These kinds of issues have been discussed, and everymod would have a full time job if we to micro mod at this level. It's just not reasonable to expect mods to spend 30 hours a day pouring over all the flame posts and deciding which cross the line and which don't - because context is relevant.

♥

Escrito por brianwl, 12.08.2017 at 14:06

I think there's several admin priorities higher than logging forum deletions... but that is what the archive is for now... mods generally don't delete topics outright anymore (unless their obvious, like porn or something) We put them in the archive and discuss if necessary...

As for the complaining, this gets into an issue of who decides when a post breaks the rules... If you call me an idiot, does that get deleted? What if you infer i'm an idiot? What if you propose an idea, and it's a good idea, exposing idiocy in the admin, thereby inferring idiocy?

And since banter is a part of this game, if Khal calls Waffle an idiot, but neither is offended, should a mod come in and delete the comment if it is in off-topic? These kinds of issues have been discussed, and everymod would have a full time job if we to micro mod at this level. It's just not reasonable to expect mods to spend 30 hours a day pouring over all the flame posts and deciding which cross the line and which don't - because context is relevant.

♥

It's not like the admins are going to do these higher in priority things anytime soon, and checking the forum takes around 10 minutes or so. But whatever. Anything that requires little bit effort seems too much for aw mods.

Regarding the complaining and banter part: "Even when not specified, staff has the sole right and final judgement of how to interpret and apply these Rules and Guidelines to any specific circumstance and situation, including proper punishment." (a quote from aw's rules)

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 14:32

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It's not like the admins are going to do these higher in priority things anytime soon, and checking the forum takes around 10 minutes or so.
...
But whatever. Anything that requires little bit effort seems too much for aw mods.
...
Regarding the complaining and banter part: "Even when not specified, staff has the sole right and final judgement of how to interpret and apply these Rules and Guidelines to any specific circumstance and situation, including proper punishment." (a quote from aw's rules)

True, the Admins have other priorities in their lives, and this is frustrating for players and admin.

You say 10 minutes - maybe if you are speed reader or a savant - generally i scan the non-off topics - not read , just scan , and this takes more than 10 minutes. When i was able to spend all my time on AW, i would estimate to read every post (which i did at one time) was between an hour to three hours, depending on the activity level...
But then to analyze investigate (false allegations or not) and judge/edit/comment/message/cite the rule violation/email the player/make a copy for mod forum... etc. At best i could do this in a minute or two for a simple rule violation. But many are a little more complex, and you can anticipate how certain players are going to respond, so on average it was closer to 5 minutes, with some taking an hour or more. So if you have 25 per day... you're looking at several hours just on responses. So maybe a 100 hours per month...

Is that reasonable to expect for someone who is volunteering their time for an online game? I don't volunteer that kind of time to the local hospital, so to suggest that it takes too much effort... well, i'm not sure i agree with that.

♥

Escrito por brianwl, 12.08.2017 at 15:21

True, the Admins have other priorities in their lives, and this is frustrating for players and admin.

You say 10 minutes - maybe if you are speed reader or a savant - generally i scan the non-off topics - not read , just scan , and this takes more than 10 minutes. When i was able to spend all my time on AW, i would estimate to read every post (which i did at one time) was between an hour to three hours, depending on the activity level...
But then to analyze investigate (false allegations or not) and judge/edit/comment/message/cite the rule violation/email the player/make a copy for mod forum... etc. At best i could do this in a minute or two for a simple rule violation. But many are a little more complex, and you can anticipate how certain players are going to respond, so on average it was closer to 5 minutes, with some taking an hour or more. So if you have 25 per day... you're looking at several hours just on responses. So maybe a 100 hours per month...

Is that reasonable to expect for someone who is volunteering their time for an online game? I don't volunteer that kind of time to the local hospital, so to suggest that it takes too much effort... well, i'm not sure i agree with that.

♥

I don't think we will reach a general agreement on the subject. But how can it not be logical to expect you to enforce the rules? You volunteered to help the game and the community of your own free will and now you complain that it is too much work to do? It sounds rather strange to me. And I don't understand why you take all responsibility for the moderation of the forum. You are not the only mod, the other mods need to help enforce the rules not only when they are asked or when they have personal issues.

I think the mods should stay out of offtopic unless theyre sent a report or a thread devolves completely into personal attacks, racial slurs and the like. Moderation has been shown not to be appreciated in that area. Most people here seem to like a bit of drama.

Besides there was nothing heavy in that roncho thread imo that warrants moderation criticism.

Agree with Laochra.

Mods and admins have given us the offtopic to play with and have shown to be lenient in flame wars and fights because of the nature of the game and the community. Spam is a different matter and that should be punished accordingly.

But if you want to change the status quo and clean the forums from all flame wars, disagreements, trolls and drama, fine but you have to understand that we will all leave and its just gonna be you talking with Brian and 2-3 other randoms. We all know why most of us are here (except for waffel who has no life), lets not hide behind our fingers

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 16:05

I don't think we will reach a general agreement on the subject. But how can it not be logical to expect you to enforce the rules? You volunteered to help the game and the community of your own free will and now you complain that it is too much work to do? It sounds rather strange to me. ...

Nope, i don't think we'll reach agreement.
I don't even see how i was complaining.. i'm certainly not. It seemed to me you were dissatisfied with the mods performance of not being able to do 10 minutes of work, and i was simply clarifying it wasn't as simple. Clarifying is not complaining in my view.

Anyway, i'm sorry you feel mods do no work and don't enforce rules. In my experience, mods do what they can, and i am not aware of any mods who have not helped, or attempted to help the community in some way.

Escrito por Permamuted, 12.08.2017 at 16:47

I think the mods should stay out of offtopic unless theyre sent a report or a thread devolves completely into personal attacks, racial slurs and the like. Moderation has been shown not to be appreciated in that area. Most people here seem to like a bit of drama.

Besides there was nothing heavy in that roncho thread imo that warrants moderation criticism.

I agree with some of what you said.
But I have nothing more to add than I have already said because it will not change anything.

Escrito por brianwl, 12.08.2017 at 20:44

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 16:05

I don't think we will reach a general agreement on the subject. But how can it not be logical to expect you to enforce the rules? You volunteered to help the game and the community of your own free will and now you complain that it is too much work to do? It sounds rather strange to me. ...

Nope, i don't think we'll reach agreement.
I don't even see how i was complaining.. i'm certainly not. It seemed to me you were dissatisfied with the mods performance of not being able to do 10 minutes of work, and i was simply clarifying it wasn't as simple. Clarifying is not complaining in my view.

Anyway, i'm sorry you feel mods do no work and don't enforce rules. In my experience, mods do what they can, and i am not aware of any mods who have not helped, or attempted to help the community in some way.

Alright. Cheers.

Escrito por Abraham, 12.08.2017 at 20:47

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Alright. Cheers.

♥