Should Custom Maps be Community Assets?

Escrito por Aetius, 31.10.2015 at 16:24

Escrito por Dbacks, 31.10.2015 at 15:53

think we already established that that shit rarely happens in competitive scene.

The competitive scene is a tiny minority of games on atwar, so for you to dismiss this just because it doesn't affect your tiny clique really disqualifies you as incapable of creating a better solution to the present system, if one is even needed, which it is not.

didn't dismiss it, his reasoning is wrong and I pointed that out

I think maps should be assets of atWar. It creates strange power struggles and confusion. It would be much simpler and solve a lot of complaints of the map maker had no power. If they are uncomfortable with that then don't make a map. If you want to create something fun and are willing to donate to the map for the chance to play that map with others then go ahead and make it.

Escrito por jimmynow, 31.10.2015 at 18:47

I think maps should be assets of atWar. It creates strange power struggles and confusion. It would be much simpler and solve a lot of complaints of the map maker had no power. If they are uncomfortable with that then don't make a map. If you want to create something fun and are willing to donate to the map for the chance to play that map with others then go ahead and make it.

First let's establish you don't know what you are talking about.
1) Unlike you, I bought premium, and as previously stated by myself and others, one of the reasons for doing so was the ability to make maps. For me it was the sole reason I spent my hard earned money on this game. Something I do not do lightly. For me being able to host games on any map is a trivial perk compared to being able to create maps. If in the beginning it was stated up front that my maps, after I had spent a year, so far, of development on was going to fall under the control of someone or everyone else's control, then I would never have spent the money and bought premium.

2) Since you do not have premium, and unless you do, you have never made a map. And thus you have NO idea what it takes to do so. The hours upon hours it takes to meticulously draw borders, place cities, create incomes and troops. And all the while trying and keep it balanced so it will be fun to play, is alot of work. And until you do, you have nothing to base your decision upon to support maps being taken away from makers and turned into a community asset.

3) The "power struggle" as I remember it was a group of paying customers voicing their complaint about the minions of the Atwar administration, who were failing to properly and satisfactorily deal with the ever growing population of trolls within the game. Since map making is a right we have paid for, then we should have more power over our creations then anyone else. I can delete my own account, it is not a community asset, and as such all content I create under said account should be under my complete control, not the communities, this is what I paid for.

In conclusion if map makers cease creating then their will no longer be any great quality maps and scenarios to play and growth of the game will come to a halt. And by the way map makers can play a game on any map they create with anyone, at anytime they want, whether it is published or not. There is no chance involved in it. I know you were only stating your opinion, but so am I. As well I do not think that non-premium players are not equal to premiums, please do not feel that I was dogging you for that in any way. It's merely a fact that premium account holders have paid money for certain rights and abilities in the game and thus are entitled to more, it is again, something we paid for. Hope you have a nice day.

Escrito por clovis1122, 30.10.2015 at 16:01

Escrito por Al Fappino, 30.10.2015 at 15:53

Disagree. Mapmaker should have the ultimate word regarding his maps, regardless of the visibility it has, of course taking it away for some random bitching is also a "ethical" decision of the mapmaker, but still, of the mapmaker.

If they were to complain with the MapMaker or just play another map, then cool...

But this is very optimist. They will most likely leave the game and it is not good for the admins. Some of them can go extreme and riot in forums, making the game looks bad.

Then fix the fucking trolling dont punish the damn map maker. This is insanity I can't believe this is a real discussion. Trolls will leave if you don't let them troll Is basically what I'm gathering from this. Isn't that the point? The need to be permanently removed from the community after a single warning plain and simple. Aswell if they wish to take the maps over fine, make all new maps community assets as for maps previously published before the illegal terms of service change those do not belong to you. No we did not pay for that and no we do not consent. All maps made before terms of service change are not yours and if I want to delete them go fuck yourself. I'd of never bought premium for this, and I'll want my money back if this continues.

Escrito por Warmonger Dak, 31.10.2015 at 20:20

Escrito por jimmynow, 31.10.2015 at 18:47

I think maps should be assets of atWar. It creates strange power struggles and confusion. It would be much simpler and solve a lot of complaints of the map maker had no power. If they are uncomfortable with that then don't make a map. If you want to create something fun and are willing to donate to the map for the chance to play that map with others then go ahead and make it.

First let's establish you don't know what you are talking about.
1) Unlike you, I bought premium, and as previously stated by myself and others, one of the reasons for doing so was the ability to make maps. For me it was the sole reason I spent my hard earned money on this game. Something I do not do lightly. For me being able to host games on any map is a trivial perk compared to being able to create maps. If in the beginning it was stated up front that my maps, after I had spent a year, so far, of development on was going to fall under the control of someone or everyone else's control, then I would never have spent the money and bought premium.

2) Since you do not have premium, and unless you do, you have never made a map. And thus you have NO idea what it takes to do so. The hours upon hours it takes to meticulously draw borders, place cities, create incomes and troops. And all the while trying and keep it balanced so it will be fun to play, is alot of work. And until you do, you have nothing to base your decision upon to support maps being taken away from makers and turned into a community asset.

3) The "power struggle" as I remember it was a group of paying customers voicing their complaint about the minions of the Atwar administration, who were failing to properly and satisfactorily deal with the ever growing population of trolls within the game. Since map making is a right we have paid for, then we should have more power over our creations then anyone else. I can delete my own account, it is not a community asset, and as such all content I create under said account should be under my complete control, not the communities, this is what I paid for.

In conclusion if map makers cease creating then their will no longer be any great quality maps and scenarios to play and growth of the game will come to a halt. And by the way map makers can play a game on any map they create with anyone, at anytime they want, whether it is published or not. There is no chance involved in it. I know you were only stating your opinion, but so am I. As well I do not think that non-premium players are not equal to premiums, please do not feel that I was dogging you for that in any way. It's merely a fact that premium account holders
have paid money for certain rights and abilities in the game and thus are entitled to more, it is again, something we paid for. Hope you have a nice day.

Whether I have premium or not is irrelevant to the issue. One can debate pros and cons and be entirely legitimate even if they have not experienced something. Think of capital punishment. Arguably no one has "experienced" that and lived to tell about it. So we're all debating things we don't have first hand experience. However, I understand your prejudice point of view.

Now about your point of paying for the right to make maps...,I can see your point. But it's not your game. You paid for the right to add to someone else's game. It's a matter of ownership. How can you own something that only works on someone else's platform? But I can understand an appreciate hay point. I think it would be fair to give you the right to delete your maps or allow atWar to take them over.

Also, I can appreciate the time it took to make. But again you spent that time adding to someone else's game. You don't own this website so you added to someone else's asset.

I just fail to see any logic as to why your additions to someone else's property make it your property.

But we can agree to disagree. I'm ok with that.

Escrito por jimmynow, 01.11.2015 at 06:06

Escrito por Warmonger Dak, 31.10.2015 at 20:20

Escrito por jimmynow, 31.10.2015 at 18:47

I think maps should be assets of atWar. It creates strange power struggles and confusion. It would be much simpler and solve a lot of complaints of the map maker had no power. If they are uncomfortable with that then don't make a map. If you want to create something fun and are willing to donate to the map for the chance to play that map with others then go ahead and make it.

First let's establish you don't know what you are talking about.
1) Unlike you, I bought premium, and as previously stated by myself and others, one of the reasons for doing so was the ability to make maps. For me it was the sole reason I spent my hard earned money on this game. Something I do not do lightly. For me being able to host games on any map is a trivial perk compared to being able to create maps. If in the beginning it was stated up front that my maps, after I had spent a year, so far, of development on was going to fall under the control of someone or everyone else's control, then I would never have spent the money and bought premium.

2) Since you do not have premium, and unless you do, you have never made a map. And thus you have NO idea what it takes to do so. The hours upon hours it takes to meticulously draw borders, place cities, create incomes and troops. And all the while trying and keep it balanced so it will be fun to play, is alot of work. And until you do, you have nothing to base your decision upon to support maps being taken away from makers and turned into a community asset.

3) The "power struggle" as I remember it was a group of paying customers voicing their complaint about the minions of the Atwar administration, who were failing to properly and satisfactorily deal with the ever growing population of trolls within the game. Since map making is a right we have paid for, then we should have more power over our creations then anyone else. I can delete my own account, it is not a community asset, and as such all content I create under said account should be under my complete control, not the communities, this is what I paid for.

In conclusion if map makers cease creating then their will no longer be any great quality maps and scenarios to play and growth of the game will come to a halt. And by the way map makers can play a game on any map they create with anyone, at anytime they want, whether it is published or not. There is no chance involved in it. I know you were only stating your opinion, but so am I. As well I do not think that non-premium players are not equal to premiums, please do not feel that I was dogging you for that in any way. It's merely a fact that premium account holders
have paid money for certain rights and abilities in the game and thus are entitled to more, it is again, something we paid for. Hope you have a nice day.

Whether I have premium or not is irrelevant to the issue. One can debate pros and cons and be entirely legitimate even if they have not experienced something. Think of capital punishment. Arguably no one has "experienced" that and lived to tell about it. So we're all debating things we don't have first hand experience. However, I understand your prejudice point of view.

Now about your point of paying for the right to make maps...,I can see your point. But it's not your game. You paid for the right to add to someone else's game. It's a matter of ownership. How can you own something that only works on someone else's platform? But I can understand an appreciate hay point. I think it would be fair to give you the right to delete your maps or allow atWar to take them over.

Also, I can appreciate the time it took to make. But again you spent that time adding to someone else's game. You don't own this website so you added to someone else's asset.

I just fail to see any logic as to why your additions to someone else's property make it your property.

But we can agree to disagree. I'm ok with that.

It's not right to compare a capital punishment to what is being discussed here. Capital Punishment is morally wrong, you don't need to have first hand experience to know that taking away somebody's life is wrong, no matter what he did. But when you take somebody's else work and claim ownership on it, then also take all the rights from the creator himself who paid money to create it, that is something to argue about.

But since Pulse provided us quote from the TOS, people have a choice either to create maps and know their control on their content is limited or just stop.

Escrito por Abraham, 01.11.2015 at 06:16

But since Pulse provided us quote from the TOS, people have a choice either to create maps and know their control on their content is limited or just stop.

Agreed.

Escrito por Helly, 01.11.2015 at 01:10

First, I'm afraid I can do nothing about the ToS. If you really want it to be changed, try directly talking with admins or make a thread about it.

Second, it looks like you're assuming that a MapMaker would only delete his maps due to trolls... In fact, you can delete/hide it for whatever reason you want.

Imagine what would happen if you decide to delete all your maps now just because you disagree with the ToS. Then, all your fans would complain, not saying "fuck you hell", but actually "fuck admins, I pay my money to host this map and now I can't. This game sucks".

Then, if those fans complains in forums and make out a big mess, admins will have no choice but to bring the map back, to avoid many other players leaving.

This is why I disagree with giving MapMakers the right to delete their maps or hide it by any reason.

Reality check:

Map-makers will never get their maps taken away.
If the hide-only-with-permission thing is introduced it will be informed and debated beforehand (not here because this thread is a mess).
Custom maps make up a good part of AW (don't say majority, default does, for now) and it is indeed important to discuss how they are handled.
The competitive scene isn't an influential minority.
The ban list isn't ideal and needs tweaking. I'll take you back to my suggestion that got buried.

Escrito por The Tactician, 30.10.2015 at 14:02

I guess we can agree on rewarding map makers, and definitely not allowing maps to be publicly clones/edited. The hide/not being able to hide thing is the topic of debate and I don't see it being implemented soon anyway since admins are working on HTML5. I also agree with Pulse for a better solution on the ban list (as it is one of the reasons of the high leverage of map makers).

How about this for a ban list fix:

Bans are sorted into several categories. These would include leaving, WF'ing, disobeying map rules (no attacking something for first turn or moving into a certain area) only if the rules are clearly stated, profanity in chat, and anything else that would be a reason for ban. These categories would be specified when banning a player, and then an ''evidence'' box is introduced below it. There a SS is provided or at least an SS of player reports. From there it's up to a mod to allow the ban or reject it, and instead of having a ''banlist appeal thread'' you have a ''banlist rejection thread''. I think this would be more beneficial because the ban isn't instantly effective and has to go through a mod before being effective and that means there is judgment whether it's fair or not beforehand.

Oh, and all players have a say in everything as long as they have reason for their claims.

You may continue debating.

Escrito por The Tactician, 01.11.2015 at 08:04

From there it's up to a mod to allow the ban or reject it, and instead of having a ''banlist appeal thread'' you have a ''banlist rejection thread''. I think this would be more beneficial because the ban isn't instantly effective and has to go through a mod before being effective and that means there is judgment whether it's fair or not beforehand.

so instead of having to deal with 5 unbans on a monthly basis, they will have to worry about 50 bans on a daily basis (1500 bans a month).

Escrito por Tundy, 31.10.2015 at 10:13

also answer the following or i will stop replying, you have ignored this weakness twice:

Escrito por Tundy, 30.10.2015 at 21:41

perhaps i didn't explained my self properly: suppose you are in a 3v3 europe and your teammate is turkey, turkey decides to troll and instead of expanding he only moves 1 infantry and put its outside of his cap, turn after turn all turkey does is to move that infantry until he gets capped and then loses (At purpose)

how do we combat those types of trolls without manual bans? the auto-ban has no way of telling the difference between a turkey that sucked and a turkey that lost at purpose.

I didn't, my suggestion on votekicking regarded AFK players but could applied to that case as well.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 06:45

Imagine what would happen if you decide to delete all your maps now just because you disagree with the ToS. Then, all your fans would complain, not saying "fuck you hell", but actually "fuck admins, I pay my money to host this map and now I can't. This game sucks".

Then, if those fans complains in forums and make out a big mess, admins will have no choice but to bring the map back, to avoid many other players leaving.

and what do you think its going to happen when the map maker leaves?

what do you think it will happen when the fans of ww1 get bored and there is no new map to play?

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 08:29

what do you think it will happen when the fans of ww1 get bored and there is no new map to play?

AW has survived long before custom maps were really a thing and before even scenarios existed

Escrito por notserral, 01.11.2015 at 08:45

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 08:29

what do you think it will happen when the fans of ww1 get bored and there is no new map to play?

AW has survived long before custom maps were really a thing and before even scenarios existed

It will continue to survive, there's no doubt. The question here is how the player base is going to flourish? Without map makers, it will increase slowly with its small amount of player base like it was before the addition of the scenarios and custom maps, something that the admins don't want.
Therefore I'd recommend to reach to agreement with the map makers, otherwise the game content won't be polished and renewed often.

For a hundred of time...

1. MapMakers makes the map and spend a good time working on it, so they should earn somenthing from it >>>>>> WE ALL AGREE.

2. Since they have worked in their own map, it is not good to let someone else to clone it. Reasons are obvious >>>>>> WE ALL AGREE.

3. With the current system, MapMakers can archive influence in the players database, which can be used to damage the game. Say, a MapMaker deletes a popular map for having a rant with some people or just decide to leave the game, then the players who plays that map will also leave the game or riot in forums. >>>> CAN WE ALL AGREE TO THIS?

If you aren't convinced about any of the two prior points, then go and read the whole arguments in the four pages of discussion.

I won't debate or reply about those points anymore.

---

---

As for the solutions:


I've suggested to give some sort of reward to the MapMaker to encourage him to work in the map, even though he wouldn't be able to hide or delete it. Tact suggested to give protocoins based on the map's popularity, and I've suggested to give real money instead. Which do you like the most? How do you think they should work? Comment about that.

If you have other idea , that comes to good terms for BOTH the administration and the MapMaker, suggest it.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 08:58

As for the solutions:


I've suggested to give some sort of reward to the MapMaker to encourage him to work in the map, even though he wouldn't be able to hide or delete it. Tact suggested to give protocoins based on the map's popularity, and I've suggested to give real money instead. Which do you like the most? How do you think they should work? Comment about that.

If you have other idea , that comes to good terms for BOTH the administration and the MapMaker, suggest it.

If you were to read this topic properly, you could easily see that map makers don't want money and they don't want protocoins/trophies either.
just keep the status-quo, don't try to fix something that isn't broken

Escrito por notserral, 01.11.2015 at 08:45

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 08:29

what do you think it will happen when the fans of ww1 get bored and there is no new map to play?

AW has survived long before custom maps were really a thing and before even scenarios existed

then why is clovis making such a big deal about players leaving? players leave all the time.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 09:27

I agree, the question is, do you know what is the status quo?

the status-quo is map makers having the ability to hide their maps

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 09:27

The ToS already assign all the rights to atWar, so yes all the maps are from the admins. Don't like it? Then we return to my prior comment and search for a solution.

This topic and the ToS are 2 different things, the ToS may as well just say "you are not allowed to disagree with a mod"

Escrito por Goblin, 02.09.2015 at 12:07

Constantly managing my anger here...

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 08:20

Escrito por The Tactician, 01.11.2015 at 08:04

From there it's up to a mod to allow the ban or reject it, and instead of having a ''banlist appeal thread'' you have a ''banlist rejection thread''. I think this would be more beneficial because the ban isn't instantly effective and has to go through a mod before being effective and that means there is judgment whether it's fair or not beforehand.

so instead of having to deal with 5 unbans on a monthly basis, they will have to worry about 50 bans on a daily basis (1500 bans a month).

your numbers are way off, and it's a simple read/look at ss for every say 10-30 bans a day. Not like one mod will do it all. If there are two or three sorting them out 10 players daily each they will be done in 10 minutes. Better take 10 minutes out of one person's time than possibly leave a player instantly and for however long it takes for them to report it without joining the game they love.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 08:58

If you have other idea , that comes to good terms for BOTH the administration and the MapMaker, suggest it.

This. There's the banlist suggestions, and the rewarding map-makers. If you think the ideal solution is nothing then argue that point, and try not to go off topic.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 08:58

For a hundred of time...

1. MapMakers makes the map and spend a good time working on it, so they should earn somenthing from it >>>>>> WE ALL AGREE.

2. With the current system, MapMakers can archive influence in the players database, which can be used to damage the game. Say, a MapMaker deletes a popular map for having a rant with some people or just decide to leave the game, then the players who plays that map will also leave the game or riot in forums. >>>> CAN WE ALL AGREE TO THIS?

If you aren't convinced about any of the two prior points, then go and read the whole arguments in the four pages of discussion.

I won't debate or reply about those points anymore.

---

---

As for the solutions:


I've suggested to give some sort of reward to the MapMaker to encourage him to work in the map, even though he wouldn't be able to hide or delete it. Tact suggested to give protocoins based on the map's popularity, and I've suggested to give real money instead. Which do you like the most? How do you think they should work? Comment about that.

If you have other idea , that comes to good terms for BOTH the administration and the MapMaker, suggest it.

I don't want your stickers I'm not a child. The point that sold me on map making was the popularity the influence and the fact I hate most of you. I wanted my own maps that I could host when I wanted to combat the trolling and enjoy myself. Those reasons are selfish but you don't go to the store and buy a tv Just to have the store send homeless to your house to watch it and make more money off me. Admins will never part with a single real dollar the closest this system will ever see are useless rewards that I never really wanted. I'm sorry clovis it's a great idea but admins barely make money here and won't give us shit. Not even like I give a shit about money but it would intice other map makers to work more professionally causing better maps to be produced.

Escrito por The Tactician, 01.11.2015 at 10:30

your numbers are way off, and it's a simple read/look at ss for every say 10-30 bans a day. Not like one mod will do it all. If there are two or three sorting them out 10 players daily each they will be done in 10 minutes. Better take 10 minutes out of one person's time than possibly leave a player instantly and for however long it takes for them to report it without joining the game they love.

go take a look at the ban appeals topic, it takes 24 hours for their unban to take place if they are lucky, if they are not it takes up to 8 days.

50 days per day come from aetius,pyrrhus,tunder,nifty,hellraiser,fappino,zaphirouz,adog,valetorious,waiserreich.
5 bans a day per map maker is not difficult to imagine since there is usually 3 bans per game played (1h)
this numbers are not taking into consideration 10 to 20 low profile content creators that are banning people from their maps + the games they host.

trust me, you don't want mods to handle this, they will slack and the pile of bans will accumulate (trolls will keep trolling since they are not banned).

I don't know why the game makers decided to allow map makers have a say in their maps. All maps and scenarios should belong to game atwar and ultimately to the community. If map makers don't agree I think they shouldn't make maps. If this game were owned by a richer company all maps would have belonged to community as well. Ultimately maps and scenarios are supposed to enhance our experience of this game and provide a richer experience.

Escrito por minusSeven, 01.11.2015 at 10:58

I don't know why the game makers decided to allow map makers have a say in their maps. All maps and scenarios should belong to game atwar and ultimately to the community. If map makers don't agree I think they shouldn't make maps. If this game were owned by a richer company all maps would have belonged to community as well. Ultimately maps and scenarios are supposed to enhance our experience of this game and provide a richer experience.

can you name a few companies in where you pay to make content?

The fact not a single mod admins or player argues with me just tells me I'm right, you rather pick on someone with a point less solid but no arguement matters when you get down to what map making is, why we bought it, for what we bought it, and what the issues we currently have. You guys seems to find it easier to attack the minority of map makers instead if the legions of trolls we have and that's fucked up. The to changed with 0 notification and now states that all property belongs to the game already. That's fine just let me delete every single thing I made before that and delete my account. Because that's exactly what I'll want to do if you give map making control over to moderation.

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 11:02

can you name a few companies in where you pay to make content?

That's a poor analogy. You are making to maps to enjoy those games yourself and for the rest of the community as well. This game gives you the tools needed to do that. That doesn't mean it should belong to you. It should belong to the game itself.

I don't like when competitive players who don't play scenarios speak on the subject especially Stalins Martians you all sound the same. None of you play them you have no clue you don't care your just helping your mod clan and saying what is talked about in irc. Please if you don't have any insight into the world or what it takes to make the map what it takes to start the map or the pain you feel when it takes 2 hours to start and 3 people trolled it in 7 minutes,after starting. Keep your comments to yourself minus and dbacks.

Escrito por minusSeven, 01.11.2015 at 11:07

Escrito por UnIeashed, 01.11.2015 at 11:02

can you name a few companies in where you pay to make content?

That's a poor analogy. You are making to maps to enjoy those games yourself and for the rest of the community as well. This game gives you the tools needed to do that. That doesn't mean it should belong to you. It should belong to the game itself.

if custom maps are for the well being of the community, why is the map editor not a free tool? why do i have to pay for it? I make my own maps for my self, i never made them with the intention of having other people play them, having other people in my map is a necessary evil because i can't just fill half of the scenario with people i trust and the other half with Ais

Escrito por Tundy, 31.10.2015 at 10:16

Escrito por b0nker2, 31.10.2015 at 06:29

Once you publish it they should remain available for play. No to the cloning though, I am against cloning without agreement with map maker.

why?

So with my maps when I publish it I see it as voluntarily given to the game, knowing that it is now there to be played (or not). once i have voluntarily given it to a game the idea is already out, thus the idea itself is no longer in my possession since it can be copied, as such I no longer own anything.

The cloning aspect is different, that is taking someones work and trying to pass it off as your own with a few alterations, ie not actually doing anything of value.

Escrito por clovis1122, 01.11.2015 at 08:58

For a hundred of time...

1. MapMakers makes the map and spend a good time working on it, so they should earn somenthing from it >>>>>> WE ALL AGREE.

2. With the current system, MapMakers can archive influence in the players database, which can be used to damage the game. Say, a MapMaker deletes a popular map for having a rant with some people or just decide to leave the game, then the players who plays that map will also leave the game or riot in forums. >>>> CAN WE ALL AGREE TO THIS?

If you aren't convinced about any of the two prior points, then go and read the whole arguments in the four pages of discussion.

I won't debate or reply about those points anymore.

---

---

As for the solutions:


I've suggested to give some sort of reward to the MapMaker to encourage him to work in the map, even though he wouldn't be able to hide or delete it. Tact suggested to give protocoins based on the map's popularity, and I've suggested to give real money instead. Which do you like the most? How do you think they should work? Comment about that.

If you have other idea , that comes to good terms for BOTH the administration and the MapMaker, suggest it.

The sentiment is great, in business terms its suicide.