We want rights and democracy

Players with brains are leaving game.
Mapmakers stopped making maps.
Mapmakers are locking and deleting maps.
Less and less mapmakers.
Less and less cws and 3v3s.

ADMINS,WHAT YOU THINK,WHY?

Because SOME GROUP IS DECIDING IN OUR NAME.
Because MAPMAKERS DONT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO THEIR MAPS,MODS AND ADMINS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH THEM.
Because SOME GROUP IS DECIDING ABOUT NERFING AND BOOSTING HOW THEY LIKE.

Group name is MODS

WE WANT TO DECIDE SOMETHING SOMETIMES.
WE WANT NORMAL COMMUNITY,WHERE MODS ARE HELPERS,NO DICTATORS.
WE WANT FULL RIGHTS FOR MAPMAKERS(Only them and others who THEY decide can do anything with map)
WE WANT DEMOCRACY,WE WANT TO DECIDE ABOUT NERFING AND BOOSTING,NO MODS,WHAT THEY KNOW?They are just group of players that 90% of them stopped playing and now just abusing their powers,and making themself DICTATORS.
Now some idiots will tell this game isnt real life,this is just game.GAME WHERE A LOT PLAYERS GAVE MONEY TO PLAY AND MAKE MAPS,AND THAT MAPS CAN BE STEALED BY SOME GROUPS.

Locked in 3...,2,,,,,,,,1.,,.

Escrito por AlBoZzZ, 21.07.2015 at 13:48

Locked in 3...,2,,,,,,,,1.,,.

can you pls dont troll topic and delete your post?

Escrito por Kromn, 21.07.2015 at 13:48

Escrito por AlBoZzZ, 21.07.2015 at 13:48

Locked in 3...,2,,,,,,,,1.,,.

can you pls dont troll topic and delete your post?

But he's right, censorship is strong here. Mods already announce any thread related to them would'be moved to off-topic. So it wouldn't be surprised that this thread is moved to off-topic, locked, deleted or even you get banned from forums.

When we talk about mods, there's simply no place to negotiation.

P.S: Yes, mods also discussed this censorship among themselves, not with us.

Agree with everything laochra said

Escrito por Khal.eesi, 21.07.2015 at 13:55

Agree with everything laochra said

<Post reserved>

Escrito por clovis1122, 21.07.2015 at 13:55

Id like to get banned like earlier,i have images of their reasons yet xD

And if this would be transfered to off topic,or whatever,it just would tell about abusing mod powers,and if they transfer,i will return it back,if they delete,i will post it again :d
If they ban me,i will ask for reason,passive opposition
P.S
And if topic like this can be in same forum where are unleashed's topics,this community needs to be killed xD
Lao said some days ago:"Why we need players thinkings",if this dictatorship doesnt stop,in future he will tell"Why we need players".

Escrito por Kromn, 21.07.2015 at 13:47

tl;dr

You ain't gonna get nada.

Escrito por Kromn, 21.07.2015 at 13:47

WE WANT TO DECIDE SOMETHING SOMETIMES.

I fucking cried when i read this. xD

If they actually did something with the ideas and suggestion that are given by the players the game would not be like this

Escrito por Skittzophrenic, 21.07.2015 at 14:11

Escrito por Kromn, 21.07.2015 at 13:47

tl;dr

You ain't gonna get nada.

that's double negative, sir

Some things never change.

Escrito por Amok, 12.05.2015 at 16:17

> if atwar continues going down hill like this.
Fun fact, people's been saying this since 2011

What amok said in response to UG.

Escrito por Pinheiro, 21.07.2015 at 21:35

Some things never change.

I smell sarcasm.

If you have something to say you should say it, not limit yourself to those words. Have you already lost the hopes in a negotiation between the mods and the community?

Escrito por clovis1122, 21.07.2015 at 23:11

Escrito por Pinheiro, 21.07.2015 at 21:35

Some things never change.

I smell sarcasm.

If you have something to say you should say it, not limit yourself to those words. Have you already lost the hopes in a negotiation between the mods and the community?

He wasn't being sarcastic - the community has always complained about the fact that mods decided or had a great influence on how the game runs. I myself have complained about this back when turnblock was removed, so I understand now both sides.

Escrito por clovis1122, 21.07.2015 at 23:11

Have you already lost the hopes in a negotiation between the mods and the community?

Not really. I'm pretty sure mods are reasonable people and so do a good part of the community. I just think that these threads can't lead to any development. They never did.

Want to change how things are made? Make a suggestion thread with valid arguments and ideas on how to improve the situation.

By the way: I don't think anybody is stealing anything.

Escrito por Pinheiro, 22.07.2015 at 16:41

Escrito por Kromn, 21.07.2015 at 13:47

WE WANT TO DECIDE SOMETHING SOMETIMES

Like when we suggest changes to strategies and the majority of players disagree on a nerf, since that's their main strategy?

Citação:

WE WANT NORMAL COMMUNITY,WHERE MODS ARE HELPERS,NO DICTATORS.

Where is this dictatorship? I don't see myself or others censoring anyone or banning without reason.

Citação:

WE WANT FULL RIGHTS FOR MAPMAKERS(Only them and others who THEY decide can do anything with map)

Map makers and content producers very rarely have any voice on their creation after it is released. Back in Warcraft 3, if you hosted a custom game, everyone got that map and could therefore host it, spreading it even more. When you contribute to this game, you're contributing of your own volition because you want to make a map or because you want a certain game experience altered.

I agree with the fact that map makers should retain editing and publishing rights - you can edit and remove and publish all you want - but to be able to ban people from their maps is something I despise and strongly disagree with. If it were up to me, the ban list would never have been created.

Citação:

WE WANT DEMOCRACY,WE WANT TO DECIDE ABOUT NERFING AND BOOSTING,NO MODS,WHAT THEY KNOW?They are just group of players that 90% of them stopped playing and now just abusing their powers,and making themself DICTATORS.

Things are not that simple. The voice of the people is not final in this matter - not everyone knows the game enough or understands the consequences completely. Of course a public discussion is awesome and cool and all that shit, but when the majority is against discussion because it hurts them, then this discussion is useless. Regarding our playing habits, you'd be surprised.

Escrito por notserral, 22.07.2015 at 16:54

but to be able to ban people from their maps is something I despise and strongly disagree with. If it were up to me, the ban list would never have been created.

While on this topic, thought about checking up on your old banlist appeal thread? You haven't posted in more then a month....

Escrito por notserral, 22.07.2015 at 16:54

Where is this dictatorship? I don't see myself or others censoring anyone or banning without reason.

Rly?....

Escrito por notserral, 22.07.2015 at 16:40

He wasn't being sarcastic - the community has always complained about the fact that mods decided or had a great influence on how the game runs.

I wanted to hear that.

Escrito por Pinheiro, 22.07.2015 at 16:41

Escrito por clovis1122, 21.07.2015 at 23:11

Have you already lost the hopes in a negotiation between the mods and the community?

Not really. I'm pretty sure mods are reasonable people and so do a good part of the community. I just think that these threads can't lead to any development. They never did.

Yeah, I do agree cry threads does nothing . I've read some fragments posted by Meester somewhere in the suggestion thread. According to what I read, you guys are planning to make a type of "feedback" system. This is a pretty cool idea. But what in the meantime?

Cthulhu announced that all "cry threads" will be moved to off-topic. There wasn't even discussion. There had been many times in which mods either doesn't reply, or laugh at our opinions. This is not fair.

Escrito por Pinheiro, 22.07.2015 at 16:41

Want to change how things are made? Make a suggestion thread with valid arguments and ideas on how to improve the situation.

There's a problem, and is because you guys are the ones who assumes if the arguments are valid or not. But I will assume mods are reasonable as you've said, before posting this.

Sure, I knew I would go nowhere so I started to purpose alternatives to everything I've suggested to be changed before. I will start with this type of threads, as we are already talking about them. Just to show you that things doesn't work as you probably think they does.

---

1. Cry threads, or complain threads.

As soon as Cthulhu announced the off-topic movement, I PM'ed him suggesting to rather move those threads to mod forums, and let mods discuss about it, then, give that person an answer (This is the short, undetailed version of my proposal). In this way, newcomers wouldn't see all those "cry threads", and the creator of the thread would'get a reply. Cthulhu say: "thank you for suggestion, i will take your word into consideration".

1 month and half later, Pin. Threads are still being moved to off-topic. I've never got a reply from Cthulhu back.

---

2. Community threads.

Some days later I adapt to the new reality: cry threads goes to off-topic. So I started a thread about how abandonated are most of the community-related threads in atWar. You can check it here: Community threads.

brianwl answered, and we start finding out solution to the problems. We discussed about my proposal and brianwl's one, and I also add another one that didn't got discussed. I talked with brianwl about some of this in PM, basically looking for a way to get those threads updated. Self-moderation, in my opinion.

Times happens and happens, this was concerning the whole team, only 3 mods replied and actually updated something. Pulse, you've also saw my thread. As someone commented here already, why no update the banlist appeal thread? Why no ask other mod to do it?

For the hall of fame I went deeper, and tried to get in contact with both Chess and Meester, to get it updated. I even have a good part of it updated already, the part concerning to ELO peak. Meester told me to send it to him and I did. Days later, I find out he say he updated the thread, but some information is still pretty old. I asked him, he told me to send what I have, and "he would harvest the useful info". 5 days since that, Pin. The thread is still not updated. Meester is active and did saw my messages, just yesterday I send him a reminder. He saw it, still no reply. Still not updated hall of fame. As for chess, he have a long time without log in.

Let's not forget about the Poty, biggest community award, and probably the strongest fail from the mods. We are at 7 months, still no Poty. Also, we don't have winner of the last season, and we are already deep on the new season. It was shocking when I asked BertanK about this, and he said only he have the results. I've asked him, brianwl, and even had suggested it to other mods, to help BertanK with the Poty. Pin, nothing worked. Right now BertanK have 7 days ago, so before doing anything (if mods are even going to do anything...) we need to wait till he log in.

Recently I've asked brianwl to give a look at the stocked threads in our "Ideas and suggestion" forums. 2 days had happened, but assuming he did told the rest of mods what I've proposed, then they should had already done it. But no, Pin. If the last threads didn't got updated, I barely have faith that this one will. Here's thre thread that contains the conversation, as well as my proposal: Strategies

---

3. Threads locked.

One of the hardest things is when a thread is locked, without any space of discussion. I've made a thread to let us ignore mods, while having my own personal reason the argument I grave is that if a person ignores a mod, he does know what he's doing, and there's no reason to contact him. Just read lao's reply... He also locked the thread at the instant. Allow us to ignore mods.

Now, I might be wrong with the idea, or right, doesn't really matter. What matters is that this idea didn't even had any chances of being debated. It simply got locked. This is the reality for many threads.

---

4. When they can't lock thread, they just ignore them.

I've made a thread with a lot of suggestion in the past, long ago. From the whole team only Acq say he disagrees and say he would give explanation any soon. But no pin, I've even told him in-game to post, never happened. Meester suggested a filter too. At this date, all the points are still there, waiting to be argued. Nobody had gived me yet a reason about why none of the suggestion should'be implemented. Improvement on atWar's Moderation system

I was really expecting my thread to be moved to moderation forum, and mods to either agree, disagree or debate about every single point I've made there. But no pin, this never happened.

---

5. Words never made.

How many things mod had say they would do, but never do? I've been waiting for months the "supposedly" standardization of the moderation team. Desu was the only person I knew that would accomplish this task, and he say he would - I am still waiting for this, Pin. It never happened.

Right now, I've suggested that mods should establish a method to determine the name's owner. I've also state that accounts made to keep someone else's name constitutes an act of trolling and should'be banned / deleted. This type of issues could go pretty well with the standardization, but no pin, as Desu is now, the standardization will probably never happen.

---

---

6. No way to appeal a mod.

Yes, even though you've said that mods are good and reasonable, and even though I've said I would assume it, you must admit that we, as human, can commit errors. The current process to appeal a mod's decision is simply talking with another mod.

Guess what: When you talk with other mod, he will tell you to talk with the mod you've been talking at.

Just like with the hall of fame, once again: You chess to update, he tell you to ask another mod. You ask another mod, he tell you to ask Chess. Infinite chain...

That's when you go to admins. But this thread should already tell you that admins won't listen to a player... I've sent several messages to Ivan with mod-related incidents, most of them didn't got any answer. I've always wondered why.

I've proposed many ways to let us appeal. But first you need to recognize that we need any mechanic here. After that, we can talk about the ideas.

---

---

7. Conclusion.

There are just so many things, pin , in which the current moderator team is failing. If we as community had the power to change it, we would. But no, pin. We are ordinary users, we can do nothing. "Either accept or leave the game", as I've stated in another thread.

The current moderator team is not doing the task it should be doing in this community. I've always wondered why, and how to improve it. I've said once that, in kongregate for example, they have a pretty good hierarchic consisting of header admins, admins, various other positions, Room owner, then there are Forum mods and Chat mods. In this community we could use to have more hierarchic, and the main idea would'be to limt the moderation team to what It should'be doing all this time. To moderate chat and that is. Not to anything else.

But let's leave all that apart. What really damages the community is that you guys don't recognize us as equal, as Pulse had pointed. A mod's reply wort more than an user's reply, and it shouldn't be like that. It is just a fallacy know as ad verecundiam. Right now, you guys decline to negotiate with us. ToS, for example. It was more a imposition than a solution. It would had been different if, for example, you guys had let Tik-Tok and the rest of MapMakers to talk, and try to reach an agreement tolerated by them and approved by the administration. Anyway, this conversation is going on here Petition for Tik Tok to bring back Ultimate WW2

Mods often appear to be superior to us. This impression can be blow out by simply agreeing to talk with us, discuss with us, negotiate an agreement. It can be anything. RA's controversial discussion is a bit dead. But it would'be awesome if, when the next biggest problem arises, mods does listen to us.

And once again clovis is being a weird ass two-faced person. One time he deffends all actions made by cthulhu or any SA member. Other time he is completely against it. Weird as fuck.

Won't be surprised if elcrey or soldier comment on this thread you'd be changing your opinion and comments asap.

Atwar sure as hell does need a change, and sure as hell does not need a figure like clovis or any other wannabe ''contributer'' anymore.
Pulse is right in this thread, things pavle mentioned, which I was surprised of because like I said above about clovis, pavle is also one of those persons who keeps following the crowd and never have their own opinions. I think AW has plenty of those people, if you really want to make a change to listen to Pulse because he seems like he knows what he is talking about.

Escrito por clovis1122, 22.07.2015 at 18:01

Remember mods are not paid, they have no obligation to do anything in a set time period as it is their free time they use to make the game better. A lot of your rambling here is about they should do this they should do that. Are you willing to pay them a wage to do so? No you are not, so don't expect them to do things in shortest time possible.

btw people don't respond to you because you make ridiculously long threads out of little problems. I once worked in a complaints department for a large company, one thing I learnt from that, keep it short and precise and people will respond, long and picky people will make sure you get nothing.

Escrito por b0nker2, 23.07.2015 at 13:58

Remember mods are not paid, they have no obligation to do anything in a set time period as it is their free time they use to make the game better. A lot of your rambling here is about they should do this they should do that. Are you willing to pay them a wage to do so? No you are not, so don't expect them to do things in shortest time possible.

If they can't do the job, then they shouldn't take it in the first place. Just because they are not pay doesn't means they should do nothing. In fact, assuming mods loves the game, they should perform better, not go inactive.

I think I even say I was disposed to do some of the job. Not only me, but anyone in atWar would do it, specially the supporter team. If part of the job was split between mods and supporters, then they wouldn't have a big load of things to do. The community would'be better, and honestly doesn't matter how good a game is if the community is not nice.

All they need to do is to ask for help.

There's another option, to limit the job that moderators do. There were given many ways to do it, I've suggested to make a kind-of hierarchical system before. From my point of view, and as I've said in my post, the moderator's job should only be MODERATE THE CHAT. This is how it works in Kongregate.

Btw, I'll repeat what is already know.

You guys can always choose to ignore us and keep the game running as it is. But it will generate the brain drain I've spoke about. So feel free to not reply, keep your live, move on, but when something bad happens, when the system is not working, when you guys need new ideas, then you guys will remember the players whose idea got declined by yourselves.

Im confused, on one hand you ask for mods to do more then you state the other option is for them to be limited in what they do. It appears that actually you don't know what you want from moderators, maybe that would be a good starting point, you know understanding your expectations from them before crying about what they do.

The point is they are in effect volunteers and should not be forced to work, especially not at the demands of players. The things they do should be voluntary and for the benefit of the game that much I agree on, but equally they shouldn't be limited in their views under the guise that they are moderators, if you think they should be, then you must also accept that they will not be questioned on their decision making.

In business it works from the top down, this is a business and the moderators are who the business owners have decided best to implement their product. What you ask is that the customer determines whole what the product is and now how it is run. This cannot happen from a business perspective and frankly as I stated previously if you don't like the product or how the product is delivered then you have two options. 1 use and enjoy the product that is presented or 2. use your feet and vote that way. Simply put, like it or not, that is the reality of the choice. You actually don't appreciate how much the moderators do and how lenient they are here with letting people air negative opinions.

Another thing and my final comment on this shit, threads like this are the reason that moderators will become harsher on their views, morale (especially in a voluntary position) is a very important thing, why would anyone be motivated to do stuff for the community if assholes like the OP are always criticizing them?

Escrito por Gandalf The Jew, 21.07.2015 at 18:00

Escrito por Skittzophrenic, 21.07.2015 at 14:11

You ain't gonna get nada.

that's double negative, sir

That's a double negative, Sir. **

Escrito por b0nker2, 23.07.2015 at 16:17

Im confused, on one hand you ask for mods to do more then you state the other option is for them to be limited in what they do. It appears that actually you don't know what you want from moderators, maybe that would be a good starting point, you know understanding your expectations from them before crying about what they do.

The point is they are in effect volunteers and should not be forced to work, especially not at the demands of players. The things they do should be voluntary and for the benefit of the game that much I agree on, but equally they shouldn't be limited in their views under the guise that they are moderators, if you think they should be, then you must also accept that they will not be questioned on their decision making.

In business it works from the top down, this is a business and the moderators are who the business owners have decided best to implement their product. What you ask is that the customer determines whole what the product is and now how it is run. This cannot happen from a business perspective and frankly as I stated previously if you don't like the product or how the product is delivered then you have two options. 1 use and enjoy the product that is presented or 2. use your feet and vote that way. Simply put, like it or not, that is the reality of the choice. You actually don't appreciate how much the moderators do and how lenient they are here with letting people air negative opinions.

Another thing and my final comment on this shit, threads like this are the reason that moderators will become harsher on their views, morale (especially in a voluntary position) is a very important thing, why would anyone be motivated to do stuff for the community if assholes like the OP are always criticizing them?

TL;DR

Escrito por Goblin, 23.07.2015 at 17:11

Escrito por b0nker2, 23.07.2015 at 16:17